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Shots from inside the presidential limousine
  • WildwoodWildwood
    Posts: 3
    Dulles [to Humes]: “Just another question. Am I correct in assuming from what you say that this wound is entirely inconsistent with a wound that might have been administered if the shot were fired from in front of or beside of the President: it had to be fired from behind the President?” [2WCH360].

    Mr. Specter: And did you have a reaction or impression as to the source of point of origin of the second shot that you described?

    Mr. Hill: It was right, but I cannot say for sure that it was rear, because when I mounted the car it was--it had a different sound, first of all, than the first sound that I heard. The second one had almost a double sound--as though you were standing against something metal and firing into it, and you hear both the sound of a gun going off and the sound of the cartridge hitting the metal place, which could have been caused probably by the hard surface of the head. But I am not sure that that is what caused it.

    Mr. Specter: Are you describing this double sound with respect to what you heard on the occasion of the second shot?

    Mr. Hill: The second shot that I heard; yes, sir.

    Mr. Specter: Now, do you now or have you ever had the impression or reaction that there was a shot which originated from the front of the Presidential car?

    http://www.jfk-assassination.com/warren/wch/vol2/page144.php

    Shots from inside the presidential limousine

    1. Bobby Hargis:
    Mr. Stern: Do you recall your impression at the time regarding the shots?
    Hargis: “Well, at the time it sounded like the shots were right next to me,” 6WCH294.

    2. Austin Miller:
    Mr. Belin: “Where did the shots sound like they came from?”
    Miller: “Well, the way it sounded like, it came from the, I would say right there in the car,” 6WCH225.

    3. Charles Brehm:
    “Drehm seemed to think the shots came from in front or beside the President. He explained the President did not slump forward as if [sic] he would have after being shot from the rear,” “President Dead, Connally Shot,” The Dallas Times Herald, 22 November 1963, p.2 [cited by Joachim Joesten. Oswald: Assassin or Fall Guy? (London: Merlin Press, 1964), p.176.]

    4. Officer E. L. Boone:
    "I heard three shots coming from the vicinity of where the President's car was,” 19WCH508.

    5. James N. Crawford:
    "…heard sounds which he believed to be the backfiring of an automobile." He believed "…these sounds came from one of the cars in front of the motorcade…" CD 329, p.22.

    5. Jack Franzen:
    “He said he heard the sound of an explosion which appeared to him to come from the President's car and ...small fragments flying inside the vehicle and immediately assumed someone had tossed a firecracker inside the automobile,” 22WCH840.

    6. Mrs. Jack Franzen:
    “Shortly after the President’s automobile passed by…she heard a noise which sounded as if someone had thrown a firecracker into the President’s automobile…at approximately the same time she noticed dust or small pieces of debris flying from the President’s automobile,” 24WCH525.

    7. James Altgens:
    “The last shot sounded like it came from the left side of the car, if it was close range because, if it were a pistol it would have to be fired at close range for any degree of accuracy," 7WCH518.

    8. Hugh Betzner, Jr.:
    “I cannot remember exactly where I was when I saw the following: I heard at least two shots fired and I saw what looked like a firecracker going off in the president's car. My assumption for this was because I saw fragments going up in the air,” 19WCH467

    9. Mary Moorman:
    “The sound popped, well it just sounded like, well, you know, there might have been a firecracker right there in that car,” Jay Hogan interview with Mary Moorman and Jean Hill, KRLD Radio (Dallas), 15:30hrs (CST), 22 November 1963, Tape 5B and 6A (NARA) – see
    http://educationforum.iphost.com/index.php?showtopic=9364

    James W. Altgens:
    "…left side of the car," if it was close range, because "…if it were a pistol it would have to be fired at close range for any degree of accuracy…" [7WCH518]

    10. Jean Hill:
    “I thought I saw some men in plain clothes shooting back but everything was such a blur...,” Sheriff Department’s statement, 22 November 1963.

    11. Don Schulman:
    “Just then the guard…took out his gun. And he fired also…The guard definitely pulled out his gun and fired,” KNXT-TV reporter, minutes after the assassination of RFK, within Ted Charach’s landmark documentary, The Second Gun.



    So much for DiEugenio's attempt to hide Secret Service treason.

    Wildwood (aka Paul Rigby)
  • PurpleHazePurpleHaze
    Posts: 717
    author said:


    Mr. Specter: Now, do you now or have you ever had the impression or reaction that there was a shot which originated from the front of the Presidential car?

    http://www.jfk-assassination.com/warren/wch/vol2/page144.php

    Shots from inside the presidential limousine

    11. Don Schulman:
    “Just then the guard…took out his gun. And he fired also…The guard definitely pulled out his gun and fired,” KNXT-TV reporter, minutes after the assassination of RFK, within Ted Charach’s landmark documentary, The Second Gun.



    So much for DiEugenio's attempt to hide Secret Service treason.

    Wildwood (aka Paul Rigby)


    Mr. Specter: Now, do you now or have you ever had the impression or reaction that there was a shot which originated from the front of the Presidential car?

    Mr. Hill: No.

    You do realize, Paul, that your number 11 above has to do with Robert Kennedy's murder, and that the guard referenced was not a Secret Service agent?

    Why do you think DiEugenio would cover for the Secret Service?
  • Edit
    Posts: 0
    Would a shot from the storm drain, v close to the car, explain most of the testimony quoted?
  • PurpleHazePurpleHaze
    Posts: 717
    author said:


    Would a shot from the storm drain, v close to the car, explain most of the testimony quoted?



    That's a good question. It seems like people were hearing shots from all over the place, some of which were echoes, of course. I don't know why a shot from the storm drain would sound like a shot happening in the car. John Judge has a page devoted to the storm drain theory. (below) He thinks smoke and the smell of gunpowder could've come up out of the storm drain, and also that smoke rose up above the grassy knoll fence. I have a problem with any visible smoke, because gunpowder has been smokeless for over a hundred years. If you go out to any rifle range and watch people shooting, one thing you won't see is smoke, unless somebody's firing a black powder weapon, and then there's a damn mushroom cloud. Oliver Stone resorted to trickery to get his grassy knoll smoke in JFK - he had a crewman blow smoke out of a bellows from behind the fence.

    Something else that doesn't make sense to me, now that I think about it, is the right side of Kennedy's head exploding, if there was a drain shot. Entry wounds don't explode, exit wounds do. A bullet hitting JFK from the right and below should've blown out the upper left rear of his head, not the upper right portion as Judge writes below. Could've been a varmint type frangible "exploding" bullet, maybe, but what we see in the Zapruder film is massive destruction, and I'm doubtful that a light varmint bullet would create all of that. Who the F knows?

    Welcome to the nut house, Rob.  ;)

    Sewer Shot in JFK Assassination
    Connally and others in the motorcade smelled gunpowder during the events. Smoke rose upwards from the fence area atop the Grassy Knoll, (really?) and would not have reached them. However, the passing of the first car in the motorcade would suck air and smoke out of the sewer hole and along the route of the motorcade.

    The fatal shot blew out the upper right portion of his skull. Both are consistent with a shot from below. (really?)

    Focusing endlessly on Dealey Plaza will never solve the crime. The bullets came from the Pentagon, no matter what direction they took.
    - John Judge  http://www.ratical.org/ratville/JFK/JohnJudge/sewerShot.html

    We don't know for a FACT that the bullets came from the Pentagon, do we?

    Greg Burnham's storm drain page - http://www.rense.com/politics4/drain.htm       
  • Edit
    Posts: 0
    Have you heard Doug Horne on show 452 part 2? If he is to be believed, there has been a high definition scan performed, on the head shot frames, by film restoration experts and film editors. These experts (7 in total) concluded, unanimously, that the back of the head had been crudely blacked out. I am surprised this has not caused more of a stir because, if true, if alters so much of our perception of the shots and their origin.

    I like the drain theory for the reasons you have attached and also because I think that a grassy knoll shooter would have struggled to have escaped without more seeing him (from the overpass, Lee Bowers, etc). Having said that, the drain theory is not without its problems. I read that the a map of the Dallas drain system was found in Sergio Arcacha Smith's apartment. Is this true?
  • PurpleHazePurpleHaze
    Posts: 717
    author said:


    Have you heard Doug Horne on show 452 part 2? If he is to be believed, there has been a high definition scan performed, on the head shot frames, by film restoration experts and film editors. These experts (7 in total) concluded, unanimously, that the back of the head had been crudely blacked out. I am surprised this has not caused more of a stir because, if true, if alters so much of our perception of the shots and their origin.

    I like the drain theory for the reasons you have attached and also because I think that a grassy knoll shooter would have struggled to have escaped without more seeing him (from the overpass, Lee Bowers, etc). Having said that, the drain theory is not without its problems. I read that a map of the Dallas drain system was found in Sergio Arcacha Smith's apartment. Is this true?



    Horne's claims made quite a stir. http://www.blackopforum.info/index.php/topic,432.msg2045.html#msg2045

    As always with this case, the keyword is if. I tried to find something about Sergio Arcacha Smith having had a map of the Dallas drains, but came up empty handed. Do you remember where you read that?
  • Edit
    Posts: 0
    Apparently it is on page 208 of Joan Mellon's book "Farewell to Justice", and was stated by Will Fritz of the Dallas police. I find this simply incredible - if true.

    I would have thought the Horne claim can be proved one way or the other - 7 independent experts is a lot.

    I think both the above points show that it doesn't matter how much evidence or proof is brought by independent investigators -the case can never be fully cracked unless there is a determined official investigation with muscle (and we know this is not going to happen - no motive) or there is proof brought to light that just cannot be ignored. The sort of proof that silences the Posners et al for ever and allows others to say "see!". The sort of proof that demands the truth be then brought fully to light. That cannot be ignored by our docile media. The Babushka film with a knoll gunman firing would be an example. Otherwise we will be talking about for another 50 years  :(
  • WildwoodWildwood
    Posts: 3
    http://jfkcountercoup.blogspot.com/

    Brave and honest stuff from Doug Horne:

    10) Do you believe, as it has been alleged on internet forums, that Greer shot JFK in the head with his pistol?

    D.H.: No, I do not "believe" this as an article of faith, or as a firm finding. It is merely an unpleasant and disturbing possibility. I raised it as an "evidentiary afterthought," because there were so many nagging and interlocking indicators of both a left temporal entry wound, and of a pistol being discharged during the assassination. Four physicians at Parkland have strongly supported a left temporal entry at one time or another: McClelland; Jenkins; Jones; and Puerto (Porto). So did father Oscar Huber. So did Dr. Charles Wilbur (a renowned pathologist) in a 1999 letter, in which he stated his reasons in detail. Since the head of the deceased President was not shaved at autopsy, the autopsy photos do not answer this question. The autopsy report has been rewritten at least twice, so it is not trustworthy. The fact that Triage Nurse Bertha Lozano smelled gunpowder as JFK and Connally were wheeled past her at Parkland implies that there was a firearm discharged in the limousine and that particulate matter was embedded in someone's clothing - otherwise she would not have smelled gunpowder. Hugh Betzner observed a nickel-plated revolver in someone's hand inside the limousine during the assassination; and Jean Hill observed plain clothes men "shooting back." Both Clint Hill and Sam Holland heard a pistol discharged near the end of the shooting sequence. The fact that we do not see Greer doing so in the extant Zapruder film is meaningless, since we now know the film has been altered and the brief car stop was almost certainly removed from the film. This disturbing pattern of evidence is simply one of the many reasons why an exhumation should be conducted, and is further evidence that we really don't know exactly what happened in Dealey Plaza.

  • PurpleHazePurpleHaze
    Posts: 717
    author said:


    http://jfkcountercoup.blogspot.com/

    Brave and honest stuff from Doug Horne:

    10) Do you believe, as it has been alleged on internet forums, that Greer shot JFK in the head with his pistol?


    D.H.: No, I do not "believe" this as an article of faith, or as a firm finding. It is merely an unpleasant and disturbing possibility...
    Hugh Betzner observed a nickel-plated revolver in someone's hand inside the limousine during the assassination; and Jean Hill observed plain clothes men "shooting back." Both Clint Hill and Sam Holland heard a pistol discharged near the end of the shooting sequence. The fact that we do not see Greer doing so in the extant Zapruder film is meaningless, since we now know the film has been altered and the brief car stop was almost certainly removed from the film. This disturbing pattern of evidence is simply one of the many reasons why an exhumation should be conducted, and is further evidence that we really don't know exactly what happened in Dealey Plaza.



    The "nickel-plated revolver" was also described as being a .45 caliber, if I remember correctly. The witness must've been psychic to know it was a .45, but what gets me is why on earth would anybody use a bright, shiny, nickel-plated revolver for such a daring, risky shot, right in front of God and everybody? You might as well flash a neon sign saying "Hey, look at me." Makes no sense at all. It would also necessarily mean that both SS agents in the front seat were in on the kill. What would their motive have been? Did they suddenly get rich after the assassination, and retire in the Bahamas?

    image

    Here's yet another theory. Was JFK accidentally killed by a SS agent?

    "...agent George Hickey who had been sitting the left rear seat of the secret service car behind the presidential limousine, had with him an AR-15 rifle which he was waving about at the time of the shooting. Donahue scoured the testimony again and found a reference to Hickey standing up in his seat and then falling backwards. One witness had actually thought that Hickey had fired at someone. Agent Bennett seated beside Hickey said that when he heard the fatal shot he reached for the rifle between them but Hickey had already picked it up. Hickey's own statement had indicated he had picked up his gun after the last shot but this was contradicted by others who saw him with it at the time of the shot. And it was also stated that the gun was kept in the bottom of the car "ready to go", i.e. cocked and loaded.

    There was never much doubt in Donahue's mind that if Hickey had fired the head shot it was accidental. This fact must surely have been known to the secret service men there at the time. When Clint Hill (the man seen climbing onto the back of the President's limousine just after the shooting) telephoned the White House he said "There has been an accident," and the secret service removed the body from Parkland hospital firmly and illegally, despite the Dallas medical examiner's insistence than an autopsy must by law be performed before the body could be shipped out of the state. After a major confrontation he was shoved aside and the casket removed. Of course there would have to be a cover up."  http://linda.stratmann.me.uk/MortalError.html

    author said:


    I think both the above points show that it doesn't matter how much evidence or proof is brought by independent investigators -the case can never be fully cracked unless there is a determined official investigation with muscle (and we know this is not going to happen - no motive) or there is proof brought to light that just cannot be ignored. The sort of proof that silences the Posners et al for ever and allows others to say "see!" The sort of proof that demands the truth be then brought fully to light. That cannot be ignored by our docile media. The Babushka film with a knoll gunman firing would be an example. Otherwise we will be talking about for another 50 years  :(



    A lot fewer people will be discussing it, or care about it at all, after the passage of a full century. No one will be left by then who actually lived through the trauma of November 22nd, 1963, or remembers JFK as a living person. Even if a smoking gun did pop up, (highly unlikely) and it was proven that LBJ, for example, set up the murder, what could be done about it? Would we dissolve our current government because a coup took place in 1963? Not a bad idea, but it wouldn't happen.